Thank you so much. In these days of contemporary, rock concert style worship, I long for the tradition and connection found in liturgical worship. I don't critique the modern, it simply isn't for me. As for your description of small mainline churches, I am currently visiting for a small UMC that equips the congregation as well as ministers to the community. Your article confirms to me that I am on the right path for me.
I love this. And I think you’re onto something important when you say ‘it simply isn’t for me’ without making it a referendum on everyone else’s experience. That’s exactly the kind of generosity we need more of. I’m so glad you found a UMC community that’s doing the work well. That equipping and community ministry piece is so central to what makes mainline churches vital. Thanks for sharing this.
This is beautiful. I love that you can hold gratitude for each season instead of feeling like you had to reject everything that came before. And the early church writers are such a gift for exactly that reason. They remind us what we share before all the divisions happened. Thanks for this
What does it say about a religion where one changes denomination ever so often. This interesting phenomena was the impetus for me to learn as much about early Christian practices around the time that Jesus was supposedly killed as is possible. Thinking that Christianity could never be more or less different than when the original teachings were spoken. To my chagrin I found that there was no one accepted theology for the followers of Christ. Some thought ,for example that Jesus became God when he was baptized. Some thought it was when he was resurrected. Others when he was conceived. Still others thought that he was not the son of God. And then later you find the trinity becoming dogma. Or the immaculate conception. There just isn't any agreed upon scenario. Each denomination makes up its own dogma. Certain in the comfort that they got it right. As is always the case with differences in denominations, they all can't be right. But they all can be wrong. It becomes a fool's errand to try to find the one true theology. There is none. Prophets make it up on the fly. With every new revelation. So keep fiddling around until you touch all the bases. And even then it is more likely than not that you will get it wrong. The odds are not in your favor.
We often form opinions shaped by others’ assumptions, so I’m glad you stepped into a ‘mainline’ church and made your own experience and judgement.
The Orthodox, Anglican, and Roman Catholic Eucharist, or Divine Liturgy, is rich in beauty, reverence, and a sublime depth shaped by the past and carried into the present. The liturgical calendar invites us to walk with Christ through the fullness of his life, death, and resurrection - magnificent in praise and worship.
Beautifully said. I think one of the things evangelicalism loses by abandoning the liturgical calendar is that sense of walking through the fullness of Christ’s life together. When every Sunday is basically the same, you miss the rhythms of anticipation and celebration and lament that shape us over time. There’s a reason the church has done it this way for two thousand years. Thanks for reading.
I'm in a very very small town, half the population of 40 years ago, but still several churches. I attend a Lutheran Church that is now fairly small, but with lots of involvement by those who attend. For about the last 6 years the retired pastor of the local Baptist church and his wife have attended this Lutheran Church, actually invited by a previous pastor. Long story, as he was kicked out of that Baptist church down the street. When he is able, he attends our weekly men's and women's Bible study. A few weeks ago he stated that since attending our church he has heard more about the Love of Jesus than he did at the Baptist church.
This story is beautiful. A retired Baptist pastor getting kicked out of his own church and finding Jesus’s love more clearly proclaimed in a small-town Lutheran congregation? That says everything about what’s broken and what’s possible. Thank you for sharing this. Stories like this give me hope.
Exactly. That’s really what I’m trying to get at here. Both traditions have gifts to offer, and we’re all poorer when we can’t learn from each other. Thanks for reading.
I was born into Presby and migrated to UMC, so my experience in non-denom/Evangical/fundamentalist churches is limited. But I found that I had some misconceptions about those churches as well.
I agree with your conclusions Also, I’ve recently learned from some evangelicals here on Substack, that there is a growing separation of Evangelicals from Christian Nationalism and MAGA….which pleases me. I think the CNs are a much bigger threat than anything objectionable about any Christian church. I no longer call Christian Nationalism “Christian”….especially not as an adjective.
Yes. I think you’re right that there’s a growing split happening in evangelicalism, and that’s actually hopeful. There are plenty of evangelicals who are horrified by what Christian nationalism has done to their tradition. The problem is they’re often not the loudest voices, so it’s easy to miss them.
And I’m with you on refusing to call Christian nationalism ‘Christian.’ It’s nationalism baptized in religious language, which is exactly what the early church refused to do with the Roman empire. Calling it what it is matters. Thanks for this.
I am a “cradle Lutheran,” PK, and Army brat! My dad was ordained when I was 5 and entered the regular Army as a chaplain when I was 8. I attended Lutheran services at 6 am and non-denominational services and Sunday School at the Post Chapel.
When we went to Okinawa in 1960 (I was 10), we attended services at the Missouri Synod Lutheran Service Center. I was confirmed there.
My folks’ best friends were often Jewish rabbis (Orthodox, no less) — we kept a “Kosher cupboard” for them (at least as Kosher as you could be as a non-Jew).
There were times we attended Baptist churches and Episcopalian churches. At 16, I was enamored by the Catholic faith.
At 20, I married the son of a Presbyterian minister — another PK— and while not an Army brat, he moved about as many times as I had growing up, as his father worked for the Presbyterian Board of Missions.
Over the years we participated in United Methodist, Presbyterian, and ELCA congregations.
Today, I attend and am active in an ELCA congregation that is very socially justice conscious and study weekly Torah with a group from the Jewish Community. Our congregation has frequent shared mission with the local Universalist Unitarian church.
I’ve had a varied, ecumenical background that has enriched my sense of purpose and enlarged my faith expression in so many ways.
But— I must confess, that I hold myths about how I regard most (I know it’s not all) Evangelical (Southern Baptist) churches, which are of the ilk that promote Christian nationalism, bible-bite literalism to a nonsensical degree, and overlook living the radical faith promoted by Jesus. The verses are memorized but not contextualized.
I would like a “right spirit” when thinking about people who worship there.
What a rich, beautiful journey. That kind of ecumenical formation is exactly what the church needs more of.
And thank you for the honest confession at the end. Here’s the thing…you’re not wrong about what you’re seeing in many evangelical spaces. Christian nationalism and biblical literalism are doing real damage. But you’re right that it’s not everyone, and the people sitting in those pews are mostly trying to be faithful with the tools they’ve been given. The ‘right spirit’ might just be holding space for both truths…the systems are broken, and the people are beloved. That’s hard work, but it sounds like you’re already doing it.
Your background is an inverse of mine. I'm a cradle Baptist, pk, and Army brat. Growing up, we had to attend Baptist churches because my dad was ordained by the denomination and they then endorsed him for his Army Reserve chaplaincy. I am VERY familiar with the Evangelical mindset and tradition, even though we made fun of the Southern Baptists with their stupid Disney boycotts.
I attended a Reformed Church of America college and learned more about the liturgy and church history than I ever did previously. Missing out on knowing that church history (both good and bad) prevents people from truly understanding the completeness of the Christian faith tradition.
As an adult, I attended Southern Baptist churches, an international non-denominational church, briefly attended a UMC church, and we're now at a non-denominational megachurch. The pastors do an excellent job of calling out the damage being done in Christ's name right now.
We left our previous SB church because the pastor's preaching became too closely aligned with Christian nationalism. I've lost friends and relationships with relatives because of my political and theological beliefs. I'm pretty sure my own sibling doubts whether I'm actually a Christian.
The damage that "my" people are doing to the greater Christian witness is appalling.
Beau, Having spent our life in evangelical churches, in our late 60’s we started to attend a nearby Presbyterian USA church going on three years now. Your post lines up with our experience. Thank you for putting into words the theological intent behind the out workings of these fellowships. It gives me greater clarity and appreciation for our local faith community.
Apropos those “canned prayers”: when I entered a liturgical church after growing up in an evangelical congregation, I felt like I had come home. And it doesn’t get much more formula than The Lord’s Prayer, which very often illustrates something new. Starting with “Our” in “Our Father”—not my Father or my denomination’s Father or my tribe’s Father, but Our Father.
Yes! That ‘Our’ is doing so much work. It reminds us every single time that this isn’t about my individual relationship with God, but about being part of something bigger than myself. And you’re right that the Lord’s Prayer keeps revealing new things. I’ve prayed it hundreds of times and it still catches me off guard sometimes. There’s depth in repetition that we miss when everything has to be spontaneous and novel. Thanks for this.
Thank you for truth! I've never believed we can 'lump' churches or denominations together or pick them apart. It's possible every church has an area in flux at a particular time for a particular reason. Self-examination is always a place to start - where may I fall short? What is happening in me, my immediate family, my extended family, church family that may be pushing my beliefs, etc. God is so very good.
This is wise. I love that instinct to start with self-examination rather than judgment of others. And you’re absolutely right that every church is in flux in different ways at different times. We’re all works in progress, all trying to be faithful with what we’ve been given. That humility is what makes real conversation possible. Thanks for this.
The idea that growth and large numbers is where God is is the complete opposite of the narrow gate idea. That shrinking church that is out feeding the poor and defending the weak is definitely on the narrow gate path. Numbers don't bother me at all.
Canned prayers? Coming from the Presbyterian side of the Mainline that reminds me of an old cartoon about "preservation of the saints." As well as an old hymn, 'for all the saints who from their labor rest... May we like them in glory shine." The point of both the cartoon and the hymn was that we learn to hold on by following those who held on before us. We hold our memories of saints from the ones all Christians know to our grandparents and Sunday School teachers and the guy who climbed the ladder to change the lightbulbs close because they are proof against the dark. When a Mainline church proclaims on Baptism of our Lord Sunday let us remember our baptism we remember the tiny acts of mercy each saint has lived it out. For those of us who use the Presentation of our Lord text this coming Sunday, we will remember that with Mary and Joseph we sacrifice time to the Gospel's preparation, and with Anna and Simeon some people wait a lifetime for Christ's appearing.
I love that you wrote this post. Insightful, open, honest. And rare. At least in my opinion, since Substack is the only social media I use. A lot of things came to my mind while I read this, Bible verses about not being a stumbling block to others seeking Christ, etc. The many reasons I stopped going to church, the “our denomination is better than their denomination “ being one. The surface level lessons on Sunday morning or during most Bible studies, aimed toward inviting the unsaved to Jesus. Almost nothing in depth, to grow. The last time I attended church was two decades ago. The hypocritical mixing of conservative politics with religion was too much for me. So, I read the Bible on my own and have attended a synagogue, as a Christian, for years. Very refreshing, friendly and nothing tops the Jewish sense of humor. And good is great!
Thank you so much. In these days of contemporary, rock concert style worship, I long for the tradition and connection found in liturgical worship. I don't critique the modern, it simply isn't for me. As for your description of small mainline churches, I am currently visiting for a small UMC that equips the congregation as well as ministers to the community. Your article confirms to me that I am on the right path for me.
I love this. And I think you’re onto something important when you say ‘it simply isn’t for me’ without making it a referendum on everyone else’s experience. That’s exactly the kind of generosity we need more of. I’m so glad you found a UMC community that’s doing the work well. That equipping and community ministry piece is so central to what makes mainline churches vital. Thanks for sharing this.
Thank you!
I have been on this journey.
Let me add another twist to this.
I was born and raised Catholic.
Left ‘the church’ in my 20’s
Went Protestant in my 30’s
Charismatic in my 40’s-50s
Last 15 years I have ‘floated’
Recently, I have been looking at the Reformation and revisiting early church history, reading books by very early authors.
It has been restorative and freeing to be able to embrace the faiths of my past and sift through for my faith today.
I am extremely grateful for each step of this journey.
This is beautiful. I love that you can hold gratitude for each season instead of feeling like you had to reject everything that came before. And the early church writers are such a gift for exactly that reason. They remind us what we share before all the divisions happened. Thanks for this
What does it say about a religion where one changes denomination ever so often. This interesting phenomena was the impetus for me to learn as much about early Christian practices around the time that Jesus was supposedly killed as is possible. Thinking that Christianity could never be more or less different than when the original teachings were spoken. To my chagrin I found that there was no one accepted theology for the followers of Christ. Some thought ,for example that Jesus became God when he was baptized. Some thought it was when he was resurrected. Others when he was conceived. Still others thought that he was not the son of God. And then later you find the trinity becoming dogma. Or the immaculate conception. There just isn't any agreed upon scenario. Each denomination makes up its own dogma. Certain in the comfort that they got it right. As is always the case with differences in denominations, they all can't be right. But they all can be wrong. It becomes a fool's errand to try to find the one true theology. There is none. Prophets make it up on the fly. With every new revelation. So keep fiddling around until you touch all the bases. And even then it is more likely than not that you will get it wrong. The odds are not in your favor.
We often form opinions shaped by others’ assumptions, so I’m glad you stepped into a ‘mainline’ church and made your own experience and judgement.
The Orthodox, Anglican, and Roman Catholic Eucharist, or Divine Liturgy, is rich in beauty, reverence, and a sublime depth shaped by the past and carried into the present. The liturgical calendar invites us to walk with Christ through the fullness of his life, death, and resurrection - magnificent in praise and worship.
Thanks be to God 🙏🏼
Beautifully said. I think one of the things evangelicalism loses by abandoning the liturgical calendar is that sense of walking through the fullness of Christ’s life together. When every Sunday is basically the same, you miss the rhythms of anticipation and celebration and lament that shape us over time. There’s a reason the church has done it this way for two thousand years. Thanks for reading.
I'm in a very very small town, half the population of 40 years ago, but still several churches. I attend a Lutheran Church that is now fairly small, but with lots of involvement by those who attend. For about the last 6 years the retired pastor of the local Baptist church and his wife have attended this Lutheran Church, actually invited by a previous pastor. Long story, as he was kicked out of that Baptist church down the street. When he is able, he attends our weekly men's and women's Bible study. A few weeks ago he stated that since attending our church he has heard more about the Love of Jesus than he did at the Baptist church.
This story is beautiful. A retired Baptist pastor getting kicked out of his own church and finding Jesus’s love more clearly proclaimed in a small-town Lutheran congregation? That says everything about what’s broken and what’s possible. Thank you for sharing this. Stories like this give me hope.
Truth my friend. I have attended both types of church in my life and each has strengths and weaknesses.
Exactly. That’s really what I’m trying to get at here. Both traditions have gifts to offer, and we’re all poorer when we can’t learn from each other. Thanks for reading.
I was born into Presby and migrated to UMC, so my experience in non-denom/Evangical/fundamentalist churches is limited. But I found that I had some misconceptions about those churches as well.
I agree with your conclusions Also, I’ve recently learned from some evangelicals here on Substack, that there is a growing separation of Evangelicals from Christian Nationalism and MAGA….which pleases me. I think the CNs are a much bigger threat than anything objectionable about any Christian church. I no longer call Christian Nationalism “Christian”….especially not as an adjective.
Yes. I think you’re right that there’s a growing split happening in evangelicalism, and that’s actually hopeful. There are plenty of evangelicals who are horrified by what Christian nationalism has done to their tradition. The problem is they’re often not the loudest voices, so it’s easy to miss them.
And I’m with you on refusing to call Christian nationalism ‘Christian.’ It’s nationalism baptized in religious language, which is exactly what the early church refused to do with the Roman empire. Calling it what it is matters. Thanks for this.
I am a “cradle Lutheran,” PK, and Army brat! My dad was ordained when I was 5 and entered the regular Army as a chaplain when I was 8. I attended Lutheran services at 6 am and non-denominational services and Sunday School at the Post Chapel.
When we went to Okinawa in 1960 (I was 10), we attended services at the Missouri Synod Lutheran Service Center. I was confirmed there.
My folks’ best friends were often Jewish rabbis (Orthodox, no less) — we kept a “Kosher cupboard” for them (at least as Kosher as you could be as a non-Jew).
There were times we attended Baptist churches and Episcopalian churches. At 16, I was enamored by the Catholic faith.
At 20, I married the son of a Presbyterian minister — another PK— and while not an Army brat, he moved about as many times as I had growing up, as his father worked for the Presbyterian Board of Missions.
Over the years we participated in United Methodist, Presbyterian, and ELCA congregations.
Today, I attend and am active in an ELCA congregation that is very socially justice conscious and study weekly Torah with a group from the Jewish Community. Our congregation has frequent shared mission with the local Universalist Unitarian church.
I’ve had a varied, ecumenical background that has enriched my sense of purpose and enlarged my faith expression in so many ways.
But— I must confess, that I hold myths about how I regard most (I know it’s not all) Evangelical (Southern Baptist) churches, which are of the ilk that promote Christian nationalism, bible-bite literalism to a nonsensical degree, and overlook living the radical faith promoted by Jesus. The verses are memorized but not contextualized.
I would like a “right spirit” when thinking about people who worship there.
What a rich, beautiful journey. That kind of ecumenical formation is exactly what the church needs more of.
And thank you for the honest confession at the end. Here’s the thing…you’re not wrong about what you’re seeing in many evangelical spaces. Christian nationalism and biblical literalism are doing real damage. But you’re right that it’s not everyone, and the people sitting in those pews are mostly trying to be faithful with the tools they’ve been given. The ‘right spirit’ might just be holding space for both truths…the systems are broken, and the people are beloved. That’s hard work, but it sounds like you’re already doing it.
Your background is an inverse of mine. I'm a cradle Baptist, pk, and Army brat. Growing up, we had to attend Baptist churches because my dad was ordained by the denomination and they then endorsed him for his Army Reserve chaplaincy. I am VERY familiar with the Evangelical mindset and tradition, even though we made fun of the Southern Baptists with their stupid Disney boycotts.
I attended a Reformed Church of America college and learned more about the liturgy and church history than I ever did previously. Missing out on knowing that church history (both good and bad) prevents people from truly understanding the completeness of the Christian faith tradition.
As an adult, I attended Southern Baptist churches, an international non-denominational church, briefly attended a UMC church, and we're now at a non-denominational megachurch. The pastors do an excellent job of calling out the damage being done in Christ's name right now.
We left our previous SB church because the pastor's preaching became too closely aligned with Christian nationalism. I've lost friends and relationships with relatives because of my political and theological beliefs. I'm pretty sure my own sibling doubts whether I'm actually a Christian.
The damage that "my" people are doing to the greater Christian witness is appalling.
Beau, Having spent our life in evangelical churches, in our late 60’s we started to attend a nearby Presbyterian USA church going on three years now. Your post lines up with our experience. Thank you for putting into words the theological intent behind the out workings of these fellowships. It gives me greater clarity and appreciation for our local faith community.
Apropos those “canned prayers”: when I entered a liturgical church after growing up in an evangelical congregation, I felt like I had come home. And it doesn’t get much more formula than The Lord’s Prayer, which very often illustrates something new. Starting with “Our” in “Our Father”—not my Father or my denomination’s Father or my tribe’s Father, but Our Father.
Yes! That ‘Our’ is doing so much work. It reminds us every single time that this isn’t about my individual relationship with God, but about being part of something bigger than myself. And you’re right that the Lord’s Prayer keeps revealing new things. I’ve prayed it hundreds of times and it still catches me off guard sometimes. There’s depth in repetition that we miss when everything has to be spontaneous and novel. Thanks for this.
Thank you for truth! I've never believed we can 'lump' churches or denominations together or pick them apart. It's possible every church has an area in flux at a particular time for a particular reason. Self-examination is always a place to start - where may I fall short? What is happening in me, my immediate family, my extended family, church family that may be pushing my beliefs, etc. God is so very good.
This is wise. I love that instinct to start with self-examination rather than judgment of others. And you’re absolutely right that every church is in flux in different ways at different times. We’re all works in progress, all trying to be faithful with what we’ve been given. That humility is what makes real conversation possible. Thanks for this.
This was something I really needed to read and think about today. Thank you.
That means a lot to hear. I’m glad it landed when you needed it. Thanks for being here.
The idea that growth and large numbers is where God is is the complete opposite of the narrow gate idea. That shrinking church that is out feeding the poor and defending the weak is definitely on the narrow gate path. Numbers don't bother me at all.
I love his writing.
I needed this.
Canned prayers? Coming from the Presbyterian side of the Mainline that reminds me of an old cartoon about "preservation of the saints." As well as an old hymn, 'for all the saints who from their labor rest... May we like them in glory shine." The point of both the cartoon and the hymn was that we learn to hold on by following those who held on before us. We hold our memories of saints from the ones all Christians know to our grandparents and Sunday School teachers and the guy who climbed the ladder to change the lightbulbs close because they are proof against the dark. When a Mainline church proclaims on Baptism of our Lord Sunday let us remember our baptism we remember the tiny acts of mercy each saint has lived it out. For those of us who use the Presentation of our Lord text this coming Sunday, we will remember that with Mary and Joseph we sacrifice time to the Gospel's preparation, and with Anna and Simeon some people wait a lifetime for Christ's appearing.
I love that you wrote this post. Insightful, open, honest. And rare. At least in my opinion, since Substack is the only social media I use. A lot of things came to my mind while I read this, Bible verses about not being a stumbling block to others seeking Christ, etc. The many reasons I stopped going to church, the “our denomination is better than their denomination “ being one. The surface level lessons on Sunday morning or during most Bible studies, aimed toward inviting the unsaved to Jesus. Almost nothing in depth, to grow. The last time I attended church was two decades ago. The hypocritical mixing of conservative politics with religion was too much for me. So, I read the Bible on my own and have attended a synagogue, as a Christian, for years. Very refreshing, friendly and nothing tops the Jewish sense of humor. And good is great!